Joyful Copy: Interview with Joy Capps

My guest today is Joy Capps, author of Joyful Copy—How to Show Up in the Marketplace Ethically and Authentically. 

There are a lot of copywriting formulas and blueprints, and many ways to reach your audience. But not all ways line up with what we know to be ethical and true. Joy created her Joyful Copy framework to help us write marketing copy that isn’t slimy. Based on Galatians 5:22-23 and Philippians 4:8, her framework filters best practices of copywriting through the teachings of the Bible.

Links

Connect with Joy at joycapps.com
Instagram – @joycappswrites
Facebook
LinkedIn

Get the book – Joyful Copy–How to Show Up in the Marketplace Ethically and Authentically on Amazon, or at joyfulcopy.com

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Transcript

Kay  0:00  
Welcome to Episode 73 of the Life and Mission Podcast. I'm Kay Helm, and my guest today is Joy Capps, author of Joyful Copy: How to Show Up in the Marketplace, Ethically and Authentically.

Kay  0:17  
With a heart for serving others, Joy helps entrepreneurs, business owners, and small to medium sized businesses use ethical marketing, joyful copywriting and values based business coaching to connect with their customers. Well, Hi, Joy. Welcome to the Life and Mission Podcast. Happy to have you here today. 

Joy  0:37  
Thanks for having me. Kay, I'm excited to have this conversation with you. 

Kay  0:41  
You have an exciting project that is just about as this podcast is released. You have a new book this week? 

Joy  0:50  
I do I do. I'm really excited to get this book out into the world. It has been something that has been in the works for over two years, probably longer than I realized. But I remember when I started writing it, to have this day come to fruition is kind of surreal. 

Kay  1:09  
And I got a video from you the other day with yesterday with a copy where you got your first proof copy. Oh, there it is. There. It is. 

Joy  1:20  
It is me because there's the picture to match on the back.

Joy  1:26  
So yeah, this is it. And it comes out a week from that we're recording this today. I know that this won't be released at on the same day. But it this book will go live to everyone on August the 19th, which I'm really excited to.

Kay  1:43  
And it's called joyful copy and your name is Joy. So that's cool. But it's there's a lot of meaning there. Were tell us what what is joyful copy just in a nutshell. 

Joy  1:55  
In a nutshell, joyful copy takes best practices of copywriting and looks at them and says, okay, cool. Let's use that, to connect with our customers, and our marketing and the things that we share verbally, whatever. But it takes it a step further. And it says let's run what we are creating through the filter of the Bible. And in particular, I hone in on Galatians, 5:22 and 23, the fruits of the Spirit. And then I also hone in on Philippians four, verse eight, which is about a Christ follower's thought life. Basically, in a nutshell, best practices of copywriting filtered through the teachings of the Bible. And what what happened originally, before the book was I created a course I was teaching people how to copyright. And I created this checklist and I called it the joyful copy checklist so that when you got to that point where you were looking at what you had written, you want to filter it through a framework on one side where the fruits of the spirit, the positive things that we're supposed to do as Christ followers that the Bible teaches. And on the other side were the things that we're prone to do when we use some of the hyper manipulation that is taught in the world. And so that became my Joyful Copy Checklist, which turned into a Joyful Copy Camp, which now it's Joyful Copy, the book. 

Kay  3:27  
Love it, love it. i As you know, I lead a group called the mission writers, and we write for our nonprofits for our ministries, and it's fundraising copy. So it's copywriting, which, you know, that whole idea of I'm writing persuasive words to get someone to do something, it feels kind of slimy, you know, when you first introduce it, and I'm like, no, no, it's not. It's it's all in how you do it. And but even the idea, though, of like an ethical copywriter feels like kind of an oxymoron. 

Joy  4:05  
Where did you hear that? 

Kay  4:06  
Somewhere in your book, I think.

Joy  4:11  
So I was telling you this before we jumped on here. A couple of years ago, I was getting ready for a talk. And this concept of ethical copywriting was swirling through my head. So I went to my favorite resource, which is Google. And I was like, okay, what can I find about ethical copywriting and what blew my mind was at that time, it quickly pulled up all the unethical ways to connect with people. And it it just kind of started spinning in my head is ethical copywriting an oxymoron. It really was disturbing. And if you went out there today, you can still find people that will show you ways to kind of be subtle without hyper manipulation and they say

Joy  5:00  
Oh, but make sure you're ethical, but they're really showing you how to be unethical. But the cool part is, is I was researching it. For another talk, I'm giving a week from today, on ethical copywriting. And I found that in that two year span, some ethical copyw riters have started to surface and write about it and talk about it on the internet. So that's exciting. 

Kay  5:21  
That that is good news, I think, because I think after a while, we start looking at things and we just know that we're being manipulated, we know that we're being I mean, obviously, if I'm looking at an ad, somebody's trying to sell me something. I mean, you know, there's a lot of copy out there, that isn't obviously an ad. Now, there's a lot of kind of real, really subtle things. And I, you know, even with Mission writers, we teach storytelling, and ultimately, we're leading people down a path to hopefully become supporters of what we're doing. Now, we're not trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, or bait and switch or things like that. But you're trying to connect people with something that they actually would like to do if they only knew about it 

Joy  6:06  
Right. Well, you're building rapport, you're building relationships, that's very different than the insidious money manipulation, where people pretend that they're building a rapport. And really, they have an ulterior motive. That is not ethical. It's not authentic. And it takes me back to the book of Genesis chapter three, which is where to me the first mention of FOMO Fear Of Missing Out was mentioned, and reciprocity and a whole bunch of other things that we use in copywriting. And the Satan was talking to Eve. And it was real subtle, and it wasn't real blatant. And hey, don't you want this piece of fruit? Think about all the things you're missing out on. And, you know, the next thing she knew she had taken action on that very thing. It's scary. You know, we were talking earlier that hype and manipulation is a slippery slope, that all of us no matter where our walk is, with the Lord are prone to slide into without even meaning to do it. 

Kay  7:17  
Yeah, it is. And we can be so excited. And what's interesting is with my group that I work with missionaries, mostly we're actually prone to not asking and not like, like we kind of backpedal, like we're so afraid of being that way that we backpedal, which is one reason I'm so excited about this book, is because I can say you know, at this is aligned with what the Bible says and how the Lord wants us to be. And you actually give a framework to check the things that you've written. So you can go back, you can write your copy, you can do all the best practices and all the things that you maybe already know how to do. But then you you get in there, and you have examples to like, even if you don't know where to start with, with writing these things.

Kay  8:04  
You can check what you doing. Right? And it's just I think that that's what we do. As Christians, we need to bring everything we're doing before the Lord and let him examine it.

Joy  8:18  
Absolutely. And if I could build on that point for a second. I think that's the biggest revelation that I try to hone in on throughout the book. And it's something that I'm constantly working on too. So it's not like I'm pointing my finger because there's more coming back at me. But I got really adept. And I would venture to guess many of us do throughout my life of creating something. And being a believer, I'd say, look, look, daddy, God, isn't this great? Would you bless it, but the mistake that I've learned that I was making was, I really was not receiving the true blessings that I could, because I didn't invite him into the process from the very beginning.

Joy  9:05  
And if I had invited him into the process from the very beginning, which is what I talked about in the book, right? Ask the Lord first to guide you, and then take action, and he will help you move through the process. Now, if I had done that, I think things would have turned out so differently, and so many aspects of what I've done throughout my entire life. Right? So yeah, 

Kay  9:29  
yeah, that's a good word. I think you can apply that, like you said, in all all the different areas of life. I was actually talking to with my mom last night, and we were talking about King David, when the Philistines were coming up, and he went to God and he asked, he says, Do I go down against them? And God says, Yes, go on down, I give you victory and he goes down, he fights them and they they leave, they retreat. And then sometime later, they come back through the same place and he goes to God again.

Kay  10:00  
Should I go against these Philistines? And God says, I'll give you victory, but don't go down until you hear the wind in the trees.

Kay  10:10  
And this time he waits. And after he hears the wind, then they go down. And they see that God has already fought the battle and won it for them. But you know, he could have like, what's our tendency is to just be like, Oh, God said to fight them here. Right? I'll just go on the word I got last time, because I already know what he wants me to do. I know his pattern. I know what he wants. Right? So this is just my guess, right is that he would have won if he had done that he would have still won that battle. But he would have lost his he would have lost so many of his men, he would have been, you know, so many things, he would have suffered losses that he would not have suffered, that he did not suffer because he listened to the Lord with that second set of instructions. Probably don't really do it enough, but fairly regularly, I'll bring my clients before the Lord in prayer. Amen. Pray, pray for them, especially if there's like a transition or something. In our ministry, we had a big transition in the type of work that we do. And we knew we were going to lose a lot of donors. And no, no ways to message that. But honestly, do they need to be there? Or is the Lord going to release them to go do something else, and it's wrong for me to keep them. And so I took a walk one day and just on that walk, and really felt the Lord prompting me to challenging me to do this to say, give me the donors, and let me take them where I want to take them. And because they're not yours, they're mine. Right? And I tell you what, it just freed me, it just completely freed me to not worry about who was going to leave how they were going to leave to I had wonderful conversations with people as they left, great friendships that remain, there was so much good that came from releasing them to go. And to not try and manipulate or talk them into staying or whatever, you know, convinced them it was just, there's something really, really peaceful about that. 

Joy  12:16  
Oh, well, the takeaway from that, and I'm walking through it right now in a variety of ways is if you turn it over to God first and let him do it in a way that may be unconventional, to to your norm to what you know, you could you could do on your own, you will reap so many more blessings, and it will come out in a far greater way. And a better way than you could ever imagine. Case in point. The promotions for this book, I am not doing your typical promotions for this book. And that's uncomfortable to me. I'm like, but but but but but but. And I've heard very clearly the Lord's day, joy, you can promote it like we're having a conversation to me, we're talking about the book. That's, that's great. But you're also writing a book you're sharing with the world how to not use hyper manipulation. And some of those tactics while you would do them ethically and authentically could be perceived as having some of that worldly alignment. And so it's unc omfortable, but here I am. And so I get it, I totally get it.

Kay  13:28  
I think we always have to be open to what God's doing, you know, even so God's given you specific instructions, that he might give somebody else different instructions, who knows, but it's like, we have to go to God for ourselves and get those instructions. And it's I love best practices, I love to what you know, to know what works and all of that stuff. But there are times when he's going to call us to step back from those things are there are times when those things aren't really aligned with him, we have to recognize that. He'll give us that wisdom and courage. Right, let's step away from it. 

Joy  14:06  
Absolutely. It reminds me of something that I've been studying lately. And it's a passage that you and I and our listeners, I'm sure have heard since we were kids, but it's in Matthew, I believe chapter seven, where the parable is told about the person that built their house upon the sand versus the person that built their house, upon the rock. And as entrepreneurs as small business owners as missionaries, you know, we want that that quick fix that when let's get to the goal and that would really lend itself to building our house on the sand. Right? Because it's cheaper. It's faster, it's better, but it's not stable. Right, right. But if we do the maybe counterintuitive way or in it for the long game and build it on that firm foundation

Joy  15:00  
Boy howdy, the pay off will definitely be there. And it'll always stand, no matter what happens in the world around us. 

Kay  15:07  
Yeah, and with social media and everything we have, there's a lot of temptation to just kind of blast things out there and use the hype. And to stoke fear, to stoke conflict, and to, or at least, right, maybe I'm not stoking it, but I'm going to ride the wave, you know, kind of repeat it or hint at it, or those types of things. And we just kind of sometimes we want to draft behind somebody that's moving a little fast and pick up speed. But that again, it's like you said, it's a slippery, slippery place to be. And as so as you wrote this book, what are you hoping happens? When people pick up this book?

Joy  15:48  
 There's a lot of different things on my heart and mind as an answer to that question.

Joy  15:54  
This book in it in and of itself was originally written, and still is for entrepreneurs, small business owners, but Christ followers that want to show up in the marketplace, ethically and authentically. And that stands, I want to be able to help them get away from that shiny object syndrome that we're all prone to, you know, call me distraction, girls squirrel, you know, I'm gonna go after this, to use this book as a tool of the reminder that there's a better way to show up in the marketplace. And then we can use best practices that have been used for decades, as long as it's aligned with the teachings of the Bible, and to realize that we already possess the ultimate how to guide for everything that we ever have to walk through. And that's the Bible. It's God's word. So my hope and desire is to impact those Christ followers to bring a deep conviction that they will do what is necessary to show up in the marketplace, ethically and authentically and not allow the Guru's and the easy roadmaps that they can purchase to copy to take them off the course of what God has called them to do in the marketplace. That's one. 

Joy  17:20  
But the other thing is, as, as I started writing this, I realized that it wasn't just for business owners, missionaries, entrepreneurs, this book, I wrote it in such a way that whether you are one of those people or not, if you want to learn a better way to show up in life, that you this book will unpack doing that. And the beautiful part is, is I weave the power of story throughout, and they're stories from my life. And in particular from my mom and my dad, and how they taught me as a child as a young adult, and even today, how to show up in alignment with the teachings of the Bible. 

Kay  18:10  
And you speaking of your your mom and your dad, you picked the release date is a very special date for you 

Joy  18:16  
I did thank you for remembering that. So my father, I'm a preacher's kid. If you read the book, you'll figure that out. And my father was an evangelist and he a lot of people said that they had that pleasure to meet him that he was the closest thing to Jesus that date ever met. And daddy's fingerprints are all throughout this book. And he's not here. He passed. So he's he's here, but he's in heaven. And he passed away on February 18. Of 2020. Right before locked down. And so August the 19th would have been his 84th birthday. And to me since his fingerprints are throughout this book, it was just a natural fit. 

Kay  19:03  
That's beautiful. What a wonderful way to honor him. I know he's smiling, right? Yeah, yeah. It's good. What what are some of the things that he imparted to you that have really impacted you and that had come out during this boat? 

Joy  19:19  
How much time do we have lifetime?

Joy  19:23  
Some of the things that my dad imparted to me when I was a child, K, it did not make sense to me one I'll share that comes to mind right now. And I guess I'll share it. I don't think I shared it in the book. But I remember when I was a little girl they're in. We're about the same age. So I'm guessing you around them to the there was a show that came out and it was wildly popular. It was Happy Days. You remember Happy Days. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't allowed to watch it.

Joy  19:54  
And I couldn't, that that didn't compute for a kid you know, why can't I watch this, but because Daddy says so was not working. And so one of the lessons that dad taught me then that didn't make sense at the time, but it resonates now. And it makes sense with this book is he would say, when he was talking about the show joylynn, which is my given name, joylynn. If you were given a plate of food, and it had three bites on it, okay, and one of those three bites was poison, but you didn't know which one would you still eat off of that plate?

Joy  20:36  
And I'm like, No, but, right, because I'm a kid, right. But the point that he was trying to make is, is that while there was nothing overarching wrong with the Fonz, and Happy Day, there was Happy Days, there were some lessons that they were imparting, that he didn't want coming into my young mind, because they were poison, they were going to take me away from the teachings of the Bible, they didn't align with that. And that lesson about the plate of food with one bite of poison, and you don't know which one really applies to what we are doing, as we write about our business, or missionary work, whatever it is, because if we are trying to copy someone else from this world that has wildly success, and they want to teach you the secrets for that there is a risk that we run out of taking a bite of poison without even realizing it. And it could creep into whatever we do. Now, there's nothing wrong with as adults that are able to process. There's nothing wrong with us learning from those best practices, as long as we have that firm foundation of God's word, that we can filter everything back through and say, Okay, I'm going to take the good parts, and I'm going to use those. But this part over here, that's poison, I'm going to eliminate that because it doesn't align with the teachings of the Bible, or I'm going to modify it so that it does, 

Kay  22:08  
right, yeah, something like my pastor would say, eat the meat and spit out the bones, right? Because you've you've built that foundation, hopefully, and that relationship with Christ to where the Holy Spirit can lead you and and say, Okay, this part, but not that part.

Kay  22:24  
So, yeah, that's good using that Godly wisdom. You know, we've talked about copy and copywriting and all of this, but we haven't explained what copywriting is.

Joy  22:35  
And I actually in the in the book, I actually dedicate a section to that was, yes. Because it's it's something that if you don't do it for a living, or if you've just heard about it in passing, you may have some misconceptions, people tend to confuse copy writing R I G, H, T, I N G with copy writing, W R I T I N G, and what we're talking about is the the writing part, the W R I T I N G, yes. Yeah. So the other copy writing with the, as an right is the one where people are going to put that little R with a circle, and they're going to register it and they're gonna say, Hey, this is mine, or this legally, I created this. And because it is a written word, then it legally is mine, even though it doesn't have the R with a circle around that. But copy writing is from from my perspective, it's not just about selling. Now, there's a lot of people that argue with me on that point, and that's fine. But I really believe that copywriting is the core of all marketing that we do. It's really if you want to take it a step further, it's it's the core of communication, because copy writing enables us to inform, to educate and even to persuade. And you mentioned earlier that persuasion can be considered a dirty word, and it can be if you allow it to do that. But if you think about it, Jesus was the ultimate persuader. I mean, the Lord sent His only Son to the earth to live among us, hang out with the heathens and perform all of these miracles and then die on the cross for our sins and be raised from the dead three days later. Talk about our persuasive message that right I mean, if that doesn't get you persuaded to believe that he was the Son of God and that He died for our sins, then you're not listening. So there's a My point being not to get preachy, but my point is, is that there's there is a good way that you can persuade people and copywriting enables you to be able to effectively do that. Yeah.

Kay  25:00  
As you're saying that I was even thinking about Jesus, when John's disciples, John the Baptist sent His disciples and John's in jail, and he sends his people to Jesus and says, Are you the one? Or who should we be looking for somebody else? And Jesus said, well look around you see the blind, see the lame walk, all of these things that are happening, just tell that to John. Right. Here's the evidence. You know, it's, here's some testimonials over here. 

Joy  25:26  
And testimonials are what persuasive? Exactly right. Right. I mean, you can take any element of copywriting and hone in on it, and it is persuasive. And there's a good way to do it. I mean, one of the another element of copywriting that we can find in the Bible, through storytelling, is talking about benefits over features, right? People care about what's important to them, and how's it going to benefit me, you know, the WIIFM model? What's in it for me? Well, if you use your words, to showcase the benefits that you get, in Jesus case, while you you get eternal salvation, you get to go to heaven.

Joy  26:09  
Yeah, those are the benefits instead of the features. Right? 

Kay  26:13  
Yeah, these gadgets we get, you know, you get a church with a steeple. No, you get eternal life. 

Joy  26:19  
Right, different. Right. Right. A church is a building that we go into. No, we are the church. We are the Yeah. So yeah. So it's like, what are we choosing to talk about? What are we choosing to focus on? And that's really, really what it is, is what are we focusing on as, as we're communicating with people, whether that's in the written word, or through our storytelling on, you know, video, or all these other ways we have? It's still, we're still using words, to communicate with people. But it's where's our focus? Where are where are we leading people? How are we leading people? Right? Always a question. Right? The Bible is full of 1000s and 1000s, and 1000s of verses that we could technically filter our copy through, but that would be

Joy  27:11  
more time consuming. And I think we would all want to invest. So that's why when I was praying about the best way to do this, I honed in on those particular verses, because I think it pretty much sums it up. If if you can show that your whatever you've written is demonstrating patience, or self control, or joy, or love, or truth, you know, just all those different things combined, or something praiseworthy, then you're good. 

Kay  27:38  
Yeah, that's so good. And one of the things you talked about is fear is such a piece is one of the fruit of the Spirit fruits of the Spirit. And yet fear is such a motivator. It's such a common part of look at all of the advertising out there, right so much, especially in political and you get different certain certain streams of certain types of businesses are going to capitalize more on that. It's like kind of the easy, the easy ticket, to punch if you're writing copy. And so yeah, we have to look at what we're doing. 

Joy  28:13  
Absolutely. Well, the acronym that I like is for fear. It's a really good reminder. And there's a lot of different ones out there. But false evidence appearing as a false emotions or false evidence appearing real. Right? Yeah. And that's the propensity that we have to do without even meaning to you know, I grew up in an age where sound good sounded, was this thing like, oh, well, that sounded good. But we need to make sure that it doesn't just sound good, but it is good. 

Kay  28:44  
Yeah, it's like feeding a meal, like not only with poison, but even just something that's not nutritious, versus giving somebody a real nutritious, this is actually gonna be good for you. 

Joy  28:56  
Right, right. And so that leads me into the other acronym that's the antithesis of fear, which is love, which is living our values every day. 

Kay  29:05  
So the book comes out August 19, and how can people get it? 

Joy  29:10  
So the book is going to be available on August the 19th via Amazon, and I'm also in the process of setting it up on Ingram Spark. It will be available as a Kindle as it paperback and as a hardback. And if you go to joyfulcopy.com All the links will be there. You can even download an excerpt if you want to taste it first and see what's inside. And it'll tell you exactly how to get it so joyfulcopy.com 

Kay  29:37  
joyfulcopy.com Okay, Link will be in the show notes for joyfulcopy.com easy to remember and the name of the book is Joyful Copy and available this Friday, August 19. I can't wait to get my physical copy of this in my hands because it's going to be one of those sit it on the desk, refer to it often types of books Congratulations on it. 

Joy  30:01  
Thank you. I'm excited to see what God does with this in the marketplace. 

Kay  30:05  
Awesome. Well, thank you Joy for being on up. We'll see you. I know again. Awesome. 

Joy  30:10  
Thanks so much, Kay. 

Kay  30:12  
Thanks for being here. If you enjoyed this, please tell a friend, share this episode with somebody that you think will get something helpful from it. I'll be back next week. I'm Kay Helm. And this is the life and mission podcast. Find your voice tell your story, change the world.

Kay  30:56  
Mission writers is a one year course where you'll develop and practice essential storytelling skills to help increase funding for your mission. You'll learn the exact stories that every ministry missionary and nonprofit needs to tell. Develop your storytelling and direct response copywriting skills, learn the fundraising story calendar, build your story library and know when and how to tell your stories. You'll do that with coaching calls. I've got a course library that's already beginning to fill up with lessons and you'll have the community support. You do not have to do this alone. But you do need to tell stories in order to raise funds. I have a free video workshop that you can get at my website. Kay helm.com. That's kyhelm.com Scroll down the page about two thirds of the way down, hit the purple button. And it will take you to sign up for that video of the three stories that every ministry mission and nonprofit needs to tell