Writing Books - Interview with Kent Sanders

In this episode, Kent Sanders shares his process for ghostwriting and collaborating on book projects. Plus, thoughts on structure and creativity, and his latest project - a book about Elvis.

Kent is the author of 18 Words to Live By: A Father's Wisdom on What Matters Most,   and The Artist's Suitcase: 26 Essentials for the Creative Journey, and co-author of Performance-Driven Giving: The Roadmap to Unleashing the Power of Generosity in Your Life.  He recently collaborated with Billy Stanley for The Faith of Elvis. 

• What is ghostwriting?
• The process of writing a book
• Building a business on your own terms
• Collaborating on a book
• Different book structures
• Mentor books
• One thing we can do today to improve our writing

Kent is a wonderful teacher, and you can learn more from him through the Daily Writer Podcast or join us in the Daily Writer Club.

Links are affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive compensation (at no extra cost to you). Thank you.

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Transcript

Kay  0:00  
This is the Life and Mission Podcast. I'm Kay Helm. And today my guest is Kent Sanders. Kent is, he's a ghost writer. He's a storyteller. He is a writer who helps other writers. And that's how we connected through the Daily Writer club. That Kent runs. Hi, Kent, welcome to the Life and Mission Podcast.

Kent  0:27  
Hey, thanks for having me. I appreciate you taking the time to chat. And let me come on your show. And hopefully I can add some value.

Kay  0:35  
Oh, no, you will. I mean, I'm I learned from you every week in The Daily Writer and on your podcast.

Kent  0:42  
Oh, thank you. Thank you. somebody's listening to my show. If there's one person out there, more than one more than one people listen. When people? Yes, I'm a professional writer. I don't even have correct grammar. That's how that works. Yes, yes. People please take me seriously.

Kay  0:58  
I know I always cringe when I send a text to a client and I have autocorrect a hold of it.

Kent  1:05  
Yeah, then it has some some other kind of wild, crazy meaning.

Kay  1:09  
Yes, always. That's how that works. But I don't think the good thing is that's kind of a universal experience now. So yes, it is a thing. Yeah. Well, can't you you've got a lot going on. Now, when I say ghost writer, we probably need to explain that because not everybody knows what that is. Or we have different ideas about what that means. So sure, let's start there. And then we'll work our way through some of the different things that you do your ghost writer, tell us what it is to be a ghost writer, and then we'll talk about some of your recent releases.

Kent  1:43  
Well, let me answer the question directly, then I want to expand on it. So ghostwriting basically is when you're writing on somebody else's behalf and they're getting credit for it, that's kind of the straight up definition of ghost writing. It's a super, super common practice, in the book world. With self published books with hybrid published books, traditional publishing, nobody really knows for sure, because the nature of ghost writing, and what it is, that means it's kind of a hidden practice to some degree. So therefore, it's really hard to get accurate stats on things like this, because of what it is. But I've heard people in the know about these things, say up to 40% of books are ghostwritten, particularly nonfiction books, and particularly those who are are written by celebrities, politicians, well known figures, those kinds of people. So on the surface, ghostwriting basically is writing a book for somebody who doesn't have the time or the talent to write the book themselves. 

Kent  2:43  
You're using their stories, their ideas, their maybe they have a framework for some kind of business concept or political thing, or whatever the case might be. So you're taking that and you're writing, really in their voice and on their behalf. Sometimes as a ghostwriter. You get credit, sometimes you note, it all is kind of in the details and how you negotiate contracts. And there's all kinds of things that go into that. What I prefer though, is really the idea of collaboration. For example, just so we're recording this in November of 2022. Just last month, a book came out called the fate of Elvis, which can you were talking about some copies you got for your family for Christmas. So thanks for supporting the book. 

Kay  3:22  
Absolutely. 

Kent  3:23  
This was a book that I wrote with Elvis Presley stepbrother, whose name is Billy Stanley, we were telling the story of Elvis's faith and spiritual journey. And my name is actually on the book cover. Now it's smaller because it says Billy Stanley with Ken Sanders, which is a super common way to do that. So they're kind of acknowledging the writer, but the the main author's name is in a much larger font size. That is really good example of a book that was really a collaboration. It wasn't a ghost writing thing in the sense of the stuff didn't just come from me, it was really, truly a collaborative writing experience, because it was really stories. I added some things here and there, particularly when it comes to the Scripture portions of a bunch of the chapters, that I had to figure out how to organize it, how to make it all flow, do all the writerly things that we writers do, right. But really the content was truly Billy so that was truly a collaborative thing. So that's really what I prefer to think of ghostwriting as is. It's not I mean, now, sometimes it can be you come in and do everything and somebody else gets the credit. It can work like that. But my favorite projects are the ones where it really is a collaboration between myself and and the author. 

Kay  4:40  
That's the way I prefer to look at it to the books that I've worked on. It's been like somebody has a course and they want to make it into a book. And totally Well, you know, as the professional writer, you come in, and you say, Okay, this is how we do that. And I'll just take care of the details of making that happen. And it's that person's ideas, it's their thoughts. It's their framework, blah. print process, right? All these things that that we we do and and you just put it together because you're the one who knows how like you hire a mechanic to fix your car you are right and actually fix your book.

Kent  5:13  
And it's funny with ghost writing sometimes. And I'm sure you've had these conversations with people, okay? Where you talk about ghostwriting, and people sort of step back and they're a little bit of gas, like, why would you ever want to write something and somebody else gets the credit for it. But really, that's a that kind of perspective is a misunderstanding of what really, the process is for writing any book. And I always think those conversations are a great point of education for people because I love talking about it. And talking about how books are made. Even if you don't use a ghostwriter. And you write your own book, it's still a collaborative thing because an editor is involved. Sometimes multiple editors, if you have a developmental editor, somebody's doing line or copy editing than if you have a proofreader. You have people who are working on the formatting and layout and the Amazon stuff if it's on Amazon, which shouldn't be the cover design. So books are always they always will be and they've always been a collaborative, medium, just like filmmaking is or TV or anything else. So ghostwriting is really no different in that respect. It's just the the writing element is more outsourced to somebody else. But it's all books are a collaborative thing.

Kay  6:22  
That's a great, great way to look at it. When when you write a book for somebody when you're the ghostwriter. And I want to come back to the Elvis book, because it's really cool. But maybe you can use that for an example, you know, what's the process when you write a book for somebody, or with somebody?

Kent  6:41  
Well, it really depends on the particular project. And I'll give you two extremes. And the opposite boat kind of falls in the middle. So one extreme is where somebody brings me into a project. And they basically say, Can you do a book on XYZ topic. And I'll basically do all the content, I'll come up with the frameworks, I'll go out and I may interview people, or I may look at some historical stories and include those or listen to some podcasts or talks that the client has done, or whatever it is, there's all kinds of ways to source material for a button. But the client may not actually be that involved in it. I did a book like that, not too long ago, where, where the client who hired me was we did a few calls, maybe three or four brief calls in the process of doing the book. But like 99.99% of the book was stuff that I just created. And there were a few, maybe three or four stories in the book that came from the client, but otherwise it was all me. So that's kind of an eye. And that was totally a great way to work. I have no complaints about that. It actually was really time saving, because I just kind of went off and did my thing. We didn't have to do a lot of calls and all this stuff. 

Kent  7:54  
At the other extreme is when a client is really, really involved when we do a lot of calls. When when they want to be really involved in the book, when they want to get their hands in the Word document and they're making edits and corrections. So I just finished a book literally this week, I'm sending it off. Where that's that is the case where they're the client really becomes the the editor in many respects. The oldest book I would say was kind of in the middle because once we had the outline for the book, then Billy Alba stepbrother, really, and I did we talk probably twice a week for about 10 weeks. Those calls range from an hour to two hours. And I would just ask him questions about, we would typically cover two to three chapters in a single phone call. So I would come to the call. And I, I would say Hey, today we're going to work on chapters 1314 and 15. I know they're going to be on this topic. And I would prepare seven to 10 questions typically about that topic. Let's say we were doing a chapter on so that there's a there's a chapter in the book on Elvis and Billy and how their relationship was centered around cars. Elvis was a big car guy. He loved cars and Billy's a big car guy. So that we did a chapter on their love for cars and hot rods in the book. So I would just have seven, seven or eight questions that I would ask him about telling me a story about this, or why did Elvis love this particular car or tell me about Elvis cars. And the cool thing about that project is that Billy is a phenomenal, gifted storyteller. 

Kent  9:32  
He is a really, really good storyteller. So he would tell me these stories. And he's been telling Elvis stories for decades. So this was not like a new thing for him. And of course, we record the calls. And once I have all those stories for those chapters, and I've got to figure out how to weave them together into a coherent narrative. Right. So the chapter has a flow to it. So it's not just like a collection of random stories there and there's really an art to doing that. And it's just kind of a writerly thing. You And then once you have a draft of the book done, then the editor gets involved. And you kind of go from there, really. So it's very much. People think of writing books as kind of this mysterious thing where you go into this dark cavern for a few months. And, you know, you go to your apothecary table with all your Harry Potter things, and you mix these chemicals. And poof, out comes this magical book. And it's not like that at all. 

Kent  10:25  
It's very much like constructing a house, you put the foundation down, which is the book outline and who the audience is, and all that stuff, then you build the frame, then you you know, you're filling it in with later on with carpet and drywall, and shingles. And I'm getting out of my depth here, because I know nothing about construction. So this metaphor is breaking down quickly. But you kind of get the point, right? Doing a book is just a very, it's a very step by step process. And really, it's not mysterious at all. And once you do it a couple of times, you really get the hang of it. And writing is mostly a matter of sitting your behind in the chair and doing the work. It's tedious, it can be boring. There's a lot of rewriting and editing. But that's that's kind of the gig. So that's basically how books are made, at least from my perspective.

Kay  11:16  
Yeah, it is. I use the the image of putting together a puzzle, a lot of times, you know, a box of pieces really good. You know, especially as a ghostwriter, I get the box of gases. And I have to figure out how do they go together. And I have the picture of what they wanted to do what they want to accomplish and who they want to reach and all that. That's the big picture that I'm looking at right? To figure out how the pieces go together. And you might try some things and turn them this way. And that way. And for me, the hardest part is coming up with the outline. But then once I have the outline, now you have a structure and you can work in that structure. That structure tells me what to do, and I sit down at the laptop every day.

Kent  11:57  
Yeah, it's sort of like with a puzzle, you get all the edge pieces first. So therefore you have the constraints of what the image is going to be. But if you don't have those constraints, you don't really know how things are going to go together. You don't know where to stop and where to start. So getting that outline or getting the edges of that puzzle finished, gives you the parameters in the framework. And it becomes way easier once you are kind of boxed into that book outline, I think,

Kay  12:21  
yeah, it's great. It's interesting how much that constraint actually can spark creativity. Because I have to now to fit it into this structure, I have to have to Yeah, do something to make it work in that structure. And that actually makes you brings out the creativity.

Kent  12:39  
Totally. So like on my desk, you know, I've got an iPhone. It's really hot. For some reason, it's been on the charger, like, Oh, this is weirdly hot hope it's not gonna explode. But this, this is iPhone 13. And, you know, whenever they, whenever they have to figure out what they're going to do to upgrade this, they have to fit it in the parameters of, of the dimensions of this iPhone. But that constraint, you know, when they whenever they first came out the first iPhone, the constraint of okay, all of our components have to fit within these parameters that makes them invent new things and have to find new ways of doing things. And you bring about new technology. So yeah, I love the constraints. That's where I think all the innovation takes place.

Kay  13:20  
Yeah, yeah. It's a really, really neat thing actually listened to a podcast recently about it was with the one of the guys on the team that came up with the pixel camera on the Google phone. Oh, really, and talking about how you make the Zoom work without pixelating the image in this camera, and it got super, super geeky. And there was a point where I really didn't understand anything he was saying. And I went, Oh, my son would love this. And but it was just to me, it was fascinating, because it was the constraints that that pushed the innovation. Exactly. Like you're saying, Yeah, I love that. I love so it's all around us, you know? But so let's let's get back to you just wrote a book with Elvis's stepbrother about Elvis has faith. And it's doing pretty well. And I know and my household don't tell anybody but that's what Christmas gifts are this year. So it'll be our secret. Right? And so it's just the the great thing about not having a lot of people listen to your podcast is

Kent  14:31  
waiting on my family's getting right. Yeah,

Kay  14:33  
exactly. So but you know you when did you start ghost writing and then what tell us about kind of your road to getting from Oh, I enjoy writing and maybe this is a thing, too. Now you have a book that you produced with a publisher a serious publisher with Elesis stepbrother how what happened between point A and Point B?

Kent  15:01  
That's a really good question. And I would say the best way to kind of explain all that is that I decided to basically pursue two tracks in my side business. I'm not saying this is the way anybody else should do it. It's just just the way I did it. Because I didn't know any better. And I just have always kind of felt like any forward momentum is good. Even if I don't always know where I'm going with it. I think it's good to kind of know what direction and you just do things sometimes. And you kind of figure it out as you go along.

Kay  15:31  
Yeah, so long story short to what's that you learn on the way

Kent  15:36  
as well? Oh, my goodness. Yeah. So I got into podcasting, around 2013. So I've been podcasting almost 10 years, which sounds crazy to me. And that it hasn't been consistent all that time, there were there were two or three years or parts of years that I've taken off in there. So I'm on currently in my fourth version of my podcast. So started out with with two different podcasts on creativity. None of them did very well, I didn't really have a goal for them. But I had a lot of fun doing them. And I really, really love doing interviews. And I knew that by doing interviews, I was connecting with people. 

Kent  16:13  
You know, I would go to conferences, I would think, with people in groups online. And so this whole time I was building relationships with people, I've been doing this for a really long time. And I knew that there would come a point whenever I would want to build my own business and, and I would really need those connections to help me. But also, I wanted people who I can help. It wasn't just a one way street. And I was doing all that because at that point I had been teaching at a Christian college for probably 12 or 13 years, I was getting really bored with my job, our enrollment was going down, I wasn't really happy with what I was doing. So I knew that I needed to kind of come up with a plan B. So around 2015. In our college, we actually had a huge blow up, we had a bunch of faculty and staff leave, it was the kind of situation and before we hit record on this call, Kay, we were talking about things that can go wrong with nonprofits and organizations. And it was in that exact situation, we had three or four really unrelated things kind of come to a head at once. And the whole situation just blew up, it was very ugly, there was like a local church involved where there was a lot of conflict and drama. And we had a lot of people leave. And I saw a lot of people leave our school on bad terms, they left under duress, or they they were let go or, or whatever the situation was. And I swore to myself whenever all that happened that I would not let that happen to me. And whenever I left the school, that I would do so on my own terms, and in my own timing. So I swore to myself that I was going to build a side business, and I was going to figure it out and somehow make it work. 

Kent  17:57  
So I continued doing all the podcasting and creating my own books, and sort of building up my own things, while at the same time doing client work, because that was a much faster for me a much faster way to make income. So I started doing podcast, show notes, doing some freelance writing other kinds of things. I did a lot of things that didn't work. Like one summer, I tried selling stuff on Amazon, doing the fulfillment by Amazon thing that was a total disaster. I tried doing network marketing another summer, that was an even worse disaster. I made a lot of mistakes, trying to build a business of some kindness. If I would have just listened to my wife the whole time, who told me to focus on writing, it would have been way, way simpler, it would have happened faster. So let's see what...

Kay  18:43  
 She saw what you enjoyed and what you're good at. Right? 

Kent  18:47  
Yeah, but I just didn't, I don't know, I was afraid. And I just part of the difficulty of I think online business stuff is that you see what's working for other people. And you assume, and you kind of think that's gonna be a quick way to build a business. Like I saw people who were doing Fulfillment by Amazon. And I was like, Oh, I can do that probably on the side. And you can, but you have to stick with it and really learn how to do it well to be successful at it. And I didn't put the time in. So anyway, long story short, I was doing my own stuff with podcasts and books and content. But I wasn't really making any money at that, even though I really enjoyed it that really helped to build up my network, which is really been critical. But then at the same time I was doing client work. And whenever it came time to make a decision about a business. I knew that the quickest way to make money was probably going to be doing client work. And I took a course by our mutual friend Nick publitas. And ghostwriting, and I knew that was the direction I wanted to go because whatever business I was going to build had to focus on writing as the main thing because that's my main marketable skill. 

Kent  19:51  
Also, I wanted to have a business where I was I could do from anywhere I could set my own schedule, that type of thing. So that's why I really focused on ghosts. Writing because books are a fairly simple thing to explain to people. When people ask me what I do, and I say I'm a ghostwriter. I can very easily explain, I write books for people who don't have the time or the desire to write their own book, we can do a book that builds your business or tells your story or build your brand or whatever. So that's really why I chose ghost riding as my main client work type of business. At the same time, though, I want to do my own stuff. So that's why I've continued to write my own books, DO THE DAILY WRITER club of which you're part and I love having you part of that community. I do my own DAILY WRITER podcast. So I've kind of always maintained this thing of I'm doing client work, but I'm also doing my own stuff on the side. And that's, that has meant that things have built more slowly than they probably could have. But I don't want to give either of those up. Because the things that I learned from client work that I applied to my own business, or my to my own writing in content. But I think the fact that I've done podcasting a lot, for a long time I write my own books. I think that helps me when it comes to client work, because it means I'm not just a writer, I also run a podcast, I run a membership community, I write my own books. So that helps make my clients experience richer. I think because of that, that's a really long answer to your question. But that's essentially the road I took to get there.

Kay  21:19  
That's cool. I just want to comment on that structure, like you said, of building your own, your own content, your books, your podcast, and the Daily Writer club. Those are all things that you create content for. And by doing that, I this is this is what I'm thinking is that when somebody now hires you to write their book to be a ghostwriter, they, they could possibly see you more as a collaborator than a hired hand for lack of a better exactly word, you know, and that you're really on a more equal footing with them as a thought leader, because it's generally kind of people thought leaders who have these processes. That puts you on a different tear.

Kent  22:10  
Yeah, that's an that's a real that's really insightful, okay? Because that's exactly what I'm going for with ghostwriting stuff. It's not that I am not willing to write books, right, don't get credit. It's not even really about quote, unquote, getting credit. That's not really the thing. I just love being an equal collaborator in the process. And the reason I like my name to be on books, when it feels right, when it makes sense for that to happen, is because then I can be a much bigger help when it comes to the marketing of it. You know, like with the Elvis book, I was super involved in the marketing. They've involved me in all the marketing meetings with the PR people with the marketing people, which was really, really fun to get to see the behind the scenes of all that. And, I mean, I don't know how much personally that I've, I'm certainly not going to take credit for anything. But I think with my sort of little corner of the universe, I was able to get the word out about Elvis, about the Elvis book and hopefully make some sales and, and do some marketing for that. So yeah, it's funny because I can help.

Kay  23:13  
And when an opportunity for you to, to see that, yeah, you know, what goes on in those, you know, the mysterious halls of the publisher when they're having those meetings. Yeah.

Kent  23:23  
And it's really not to one side, this is was my first book for a big publisher. And then now that I've been through it, I'm like, well, that really wasn't so mysterious, it was really very straightforward. There wasn't really anything mysterious about it, it was just, it's just good people who are really good at what they do. And it's really fun to be part of a team though, that's what I really loved about this is you really are part of truly a team that's working on this singular creative activity. And it's kind of fun to do that. Because for those of us who run our own business, or we work from home, sometimes you get kind of lonely. So being a part of a team for a specific project was really fulfilling to me.

Kay  24:04  
Yeah, that's good. That's a good point. It's I love being part of a team and then I'd like to scurry back to my cave and right and then I but it is nice to have the team to go to because you can they kind of feed off each other just like you both it's a it's a both and type of thing, not an either or.

Kent  24:21  
It's almost like I want I want relationships with teamwork, but I want it on my own terms. Yes. You know, it's like the true introverts the introverts dilemma. I love people but I honestly want to love people when I feel like loving people.

Kay  24:33  
Right? I love that role, but I have a time limit. That's kind of my my thing since the time

Kent  24:37  
the clock is ticking.

Kay  24:39  
Yes. I mean, I don't want to make people feel like oh, you're on the clock, but it's just kind of yeah

Kent  24:50  
I used to feel guilty about that. But I just now I've just learned to embrace it. And you know, if I like yesterday, I had I think for zoom calls There have been days where I've had as many as six like hour long zoom calls, which was a mistake, which was a scheduling mistake on

Kay  25:05  
my part. Yeah, it's hard.

Kent  25:07  
On those days, I'm just trashed afterwards. Maybe trash is the right word. I'm tired, not trashed. I haven't like been doing drugs. But you know what I mean, you just feel depleted. And I think if we can learn to embrace the limits of our energy, that's better.

Kay  25:22  
Yeah. Understand how we work? Totally. That's, oh, that's a good thing to do. Yeah. I talked about that a couple episodes ago, and I actually used your DAILY WRITER retreat.

Kent  25:35  
For What's that was a great episode. I loved it. I loved it. Awesome. I learned stuff about my own retreat. Oh, cool. Which was awesome. Well, it

Kay  25:43  
was funny, because I was gonna share some things I learned at the retreat. But actually, one of the biggest things I learned was this whole interacting with people on this different scale. And I'm not a big real, you know, in person, real event. person, if it's big, but the way you structured it really worked for me, and I did not feel depleted. At the end of your event, which was, that's huge. Like, that doesn't happen. So I was

Kent  26:12  
really surprised by that, because I assumed that again, we're talking about assumptions. Sometimes we assume wrongly, we were talking with that. I think before we hit record, I assumed that people were going to be kind of taxed at around three o'clock in the afternoon, that we would have a couple hours before dinner. And that would be that I was not prepared for how chatty everybody was. I mean, these were mostly introverts. I was really surprised by that. But I think it was also the idea where you're in kind of this house, it's not a it's a small group. Everybody's very relaxed, it's very chill. There's no, we got to start at like 6am with the UN intensive planning session, you know, kind of a deal. So maybe maybe the vibe of that has something to do with it. I don't know.

Kay  26:55  
Yeah, it was great. I mean, there were little places like you could go find a room, or you could find a corner somewhere if you needed a moment of quiet. That was great. And I think just also we had relationship already, because we've been on Zoom calls with with each other for what a year or two or three year, or however long you've been running the Daily Writer clubs, which makes a difference. Yeah, it does. Relationship is so important. You know, we talked about that with the mission writers program. We talked about it with, you know, in business in anything that we do, we've got to have these relationships, and we don't go go after them grudgingly like, oh, I have to have these relationships. They're they're truly life giving, and like know, your own limits of of how you're going to manage those things. Thanks. Yeah,

Kent  27:44  
that's a good point. It's a really good point.

Kay  27:47  
So we talked about structure, we talked about how you got to be a ghostwriter. But tell us about you've got besides the Elvis book, I know you've got the other books that you've ghostwritten, that you can't really talk about. But you've also got books of your own ideas. So tell us about those. You've gotten a you've got 18 was 18. Words To Live By?

Kent  28:08  
Yes. So a book that came out last April is called 18 Words To Live By. The subtitle is the father's wisdom on what matters most. And I wrote that book as a gift to my son for his 18th birthday. I love that. So last summer, this would have been the summer of 2021. You don't have this as a as a parent, see, sometimes you just kind of have this realization of Oh, my kid's going to be 18. Or, or if you could figure out oh, my kid's going to be injured, your hire, they're gonna be a teenager or whatever. And I had this sudden realization of wow, oh, I need to really think about a cool gift for his 18th birthday. It's kind of a milestone birthday. And because writing is kind of my main thing, I thought, well, I want to write a book for him. But it wasn't just because I wanted to just do it as a gift. I also wanted something that he could carry with him through his life. And that he would appreciate when he was 40. That's really, that's what I kept in mind as I wrote this book is, he's 18 he's not going to really appreciate this a lot now that he has been very appreciative. I think he, he's read most of it. I don't think he's read the whole thing, probably, which is okay. But I thought okay, when he's midlife, he'll appreciate this a lot more. So I kind of crafted with with that in mind. And that was a really fun book. It's just a little short book, kind of filled with life lessons. 

Kent  29:31  
And then my previous book before that was one called the artists suitcase. It's just a little short book on the creative journey. Right. So each letter of the alphabet and I have a little short chapter on something related to that. For example, A is for attitude. D is for doubts. How do you deal with doubt? L is for love. Do you really love the people you're serving with your art and your writing that kind of thing? Then next summer, I've got a book coming out called the Dale The writer, which is kind of the big one I've been working on for a while. And that is a book of daily meditations for a whole year for writers. So it's very much structured like Ryan holidays, the daily stoic book, or Todd, Henry's daily creative book where it's just like a, it's kind of like devote daily devotionals. For writers, it doesn't really have a spiritual emphasis. But that's kind of what it is. So that's coming out next year, and I've got a few other smaller books coming out as well. So yeah, keeping busy with the writing stuff, for sure.

Kay  30:29  
That's great. And I want to point out, you know, as you're listening, the cat is talking about structure a lot, you know, you had the structure, the storytelling structure that you used with, with Billy Stanley, where he's telling stories, and they were each chapter was kind of around a little theme or part, you know, you titled, I think you used a song title for each chapter. And,

Kent  30:52  
and I can, I can tell you more about the story arc of that book, if you want to hear that.

Kay  30:58  
Sure. Because structure is a is such a, we talked about that being the container, and the thing that helps us write really put this stuff together. So it's the key.

Kent  31:06  
So I never actually told the publisher this, nor did I tell Billy this, but I had to have my own. And I don't say this, like when I'm talking about the book, I don't say this a lot. But you'll understand what I mean by this, because you understand story structure is, I had to have an overarching story, you had to you've got to have a hero's journey in the book. So in the book, what I got from Billy was all these stories of his life with Elvis from the time he was kid, to the time when he was last Elvis. And then then Billy had a spiritual experience where he talked with Elvis in the afterlife. And then we can have a concluding chapter that sort of wraps everything up. So. So I had to have a way as an author to make sense of all this collection of stories, while having a story arc to the whole thing, because you can't just be like, here's a chapter in this chapter in this chapter on this. 

Kent  32:00  
So I was working on the book one day and early in the process, and I was like, I just can't quite get my head around, what the what the character arc is for this book. And then it all of a sudden occurred to me that Billy is the hero in the story, because he really is the one who is undergoing change. He's the one who's learning from Elvis. He's being mentored by Elvis. And Elvis really functions as the mentor in the story. In some ways, Elvis functions as a Christ figure, meaning he's dispensing wisdom and advice and knowledge in some kind of supernatural sense, then he dies at the end of the story, build until he has an experience in the afterlife with him. And so in many ways that that's kind of how I thought of it. No, I never said that in the book, because a lot of people wouldn't understand what I mean by Elvis is a Christ figure. And, but it was funny, somebody in my family when the book came out. Before it came out, they had an advanced copy. And they said, you kind of talked like eldest almost like, he's Jesus in the book. And I was like, that's really interesting, because I never said that in the book. But yet, she still picked up on that, which is exactly what I intended. Now, all the stories are true. They're accurate, according to Billy. But the way that I present them was I had to have a journey that Billy goes on, and also the journey that Elvis goes on himself in the story. So that's kind of the overarching way that I thought about the whole structure of the book. I never told that to really anybody else. But that that was my own thinking behind it. I don't even know if all that makes sense or not. But that's that was

Kay  33:35  
my dad's because, and I remember when when I wrote my review of it, and I was going, like, because I was only partway through when I wrote the review. And all the parts I had read was, you know, when Billy first came into the integrates land, you know, he was what, eight or nine years old? Somewhere around in the I think six stars. Okay, six, so Sue's little kid, and now all of a sudden he has this big brother. Well, what what do little kids idolize their big brothers? I mean, totally. And that's an Elvis was so cool.

Kent  34:08  
You know, he really was in real life. I wasn't just, I was very careful the book to not embellish anything to not exaggerate anything. Like it is all exactly as it was told to me.

Kay  34:20  
Yeah, and that comes across. I mean, I saw that whole first part of the book. You see a child looking up to his big brother. Yes, literally. And yeah, and you see this kind of not starstruck, you know, Elvis kind of stuff. They didn't even know who Elvis was. Right? Which I thought was really cool. And probably Elvis, you get the feeling Elvis thought that was cool, too. And, absolutely. And so, you know, but, but you do get this kind of you get that relationship. I think you did a really good job with that. I love what you said that the hero is the one who changes Billy. Billy changes throughout it. Yeah, you know she grows up. It's really Billy grows up. And it's this influence that Elvis had on him. And so our insight into to Elvis is, is all through Billy's eyes. Yes. And so I just, I just love the way you told the story that way. And, and you we saw Elvis age as well, like you could see you could you could begin to feel the weight of the fame and the ways management was was happening and the the things that happen around celebrity and the different pressures and things that that that you have to deal with when you're kind of at that level of super super stardom and trying to be normal.

Kent  35:52  
So yeah, and the thing that people that I never realized before working on this project was that there was no model for what Elvis was doing. I mean, you know, like the one of the biggest celebrities that he might have had to model his career in, in some sense was Frank Sinatra, who was whose career was very different than Elvis's. But if you think of kind of the model of the superstar today, people who are in movies, they do music, they're on TV, they do concerts, and all this stuff. There wasn't really that kind of a person that Elvis could look to, as somebody to model his career after. So he was really the first major, major celebrity of that stature who was involved in all these different things. So he was making this all up. I mean, he created the model of the modern rock star, or really of the modern celebrity. So I tend to look at his story. And a lot of people are, you know, they're like, well, elbows, you know, he was into drugs, and there was the women and there was all this stuff. And I'm like, Yeah, but, and all that's true. But I also tend to look at all this with a lot of sympathy, and a lot of hurt in my own heart, because of all the pressure he was dealing with. And I'm just surprised. It wasn't more of a wreck, you know, earlier, I mean, for him to have gone that long, with that much pressure. And all these different dynamics. Me is really commendable. And really pretty remarkable, in my view. But I think if I if I were going to lose your shoes, I would I would crash and burn way earlier than you know, I would experience a lot of problems probably way earlier than what he did.

Kay  37:39  
When he did through the book, you saw him going back to the Bible, and going on trying to find that equilibrium, you know, somewhere find trying to find his footing. And that's where he went to find it, which is great.

Kent  37:53  
Yeah. Yeah. And people have never really heard that before. Yeah,

Kay  37:56  
yeah. So great job on that. So you structured that kind of, like Hero's Journey type of type of story. And then you had a different structure for your, and I'm hounding on the structure here. Because as I teach people to write these nonprofit stories, I'm always talking about if you have a structure, it's easier.

Kent  38:18  
So way easier. Yeah.

Kay  38:22  
Then for your 18th words, you had a different structure for that. So that was basically just a short chapter around each word. And each one can stand alone. So like you said, you know, your son, you know, whether he picks it up and reads it all the way through, you know, as soon as you give it to him, or whether he picks it a word here or there, whatever strikes him in whatever year he picks that up. It works.

Kent  38:51  
Yeah, yeah, I designed that book very, very intentionally. And it was actually kind of an experiment, I wanted to see. If I could do everything in my power to create a book that was really readable. That was very simple and easy to understand, and that people could read fast. And the way that I designed the the chapter, so we start with the story, not always in every chapter, but most of the time there's a story or something to hopefully grab your attention, then I have maybe one or two or three points about whatever the topic is, and then conclude with some kind of, I just call it buttoning up the chapter, some kind of something that's punchy or interesting or makes you think, or something unexpected, whatever it is. So I designed every chapter like that, but I also physically in the book, and I was really really adamant about this. I wanted to have a five by seven book because that is a very portable type of a paperback. Yeah, I wanted to grab and go. Exactly. I wanted a book that you would feel compelled to pick up and take with you because it's so small and Just because the chapters are short, the and I actually worked really hard making every sentence in every paragraph as short as I possibly could get it. So I spent a lot of time eliminating unnecessary words and making the sentences short and punchy, just to make it readable, as readable as I possibly could. And then a number, the number one comment I've gotten from people in that book, is that they read through it really fast, like in a day or two, which and that that for me kind of solidifies the idea of there's a lot of value in having a short little book with short chapters that people can get through really fast.

Kay  40:36  
I think there's a big market for the short books, because and we talked about this in the daily retreat, you know, people are just inundated with information, we don't need information, just straight up information. But we do need, you know, a book that can carry us somewhere, take us somewhere else can give us a skank I've read in the past couple of years, I've read more fiction than I have read in the whole rest of my life. Wow. And, and normally, I'm a nonfiction person completely. But I just don't think I'm done with nonfiction right now. I'll read it, but I won't read it right now. I'm coming back to you know, but but I just I was like, I just need some fiction in my life. And I love that. But, you know, we but when we structure this, whether it's a book, or a story that we tell in a newsletter, or that we share, you know, over email, however we're communicating with people, you got to give them something of value, give it to them fast, and you've got to give it, give it to them in a format and a structure that's going to serve them. And I think if we remember that we will do ourselves a favor, as well as our readers a favor.

Kent  41:55  
Yeah. And it just it makes it easier when you're writing a book in particular to have a model that you follow. So I did a podcast interview with an author named Janet McHenry last week. And she does a lot of author coaching, she's written a couple dozen books. And she used the phrase, a mentor book, which I'd never heard before. I do the same thing. But I'd never heard that phrase before. And I'm totally gonna start using it. It's the idea that whenever you write a book, always have a book that you're modeling yours after you're not stealing content or plagiarizing. It's none of that. But you're following the same structure and vibe or the feel of the book. And that's what I do with every book. Every time I do a client book, I always ask, what are two or three books that you kind of want yours to feel like? You know, the books that you like, in the way that that those make you feel when you read them? How can we make your book give your reader the same vibe or the same feeling? I find that to be really, really helpful.

Kay  42:51  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's no one template like when you say, Okay, here's how you write a book. It's, there's really no, you know, it's who are you writing it for? And who are you? Exactly? What do you want to make them? What do you want them to do? How do you want them to feel all of those things come into it and play into

Kent  43:10  
what you actually need? Yep, I totally agree.

Kay  43:15  
Just really, really good. But this is, my last question for the podcast will be. What's one thing we can do today to improve our storytelling?

Kent  43:29  
Well, I'm gonna give an unconventional answer. And that is watch more TV and movies. But I want to quantit I want to qualify that by saying do it with intention, and do it with the idea of analyzing stories in TV shows or movies, we're really there's so much there's so there's so many blurred lines between those two today, if you like, if you like the TV show, Yellowstone, or whatever, that's 10 episodes a season, that's really like one long movie 110 hour movie, so but I would probably pick a movie, because there it's going to be shorter to analyze that a 10 hour miniseries or something. But pick something that speaks to you. And break it down and reverse engineer it. So you can really understand how stories are told. And I've done this many, many times. And I find it to be a really, really helpful exercise. 

Kent  44:21  
For, for example, take a movie and literally watch the movie and you make a list of here's all the scenes, what are they trying to do in the scene? Why is this scene in the movie? What would be missing if this scene were not here? Because if a movie is written in, if Hollywood has invested millions of dollars into a movie, that means they're pretty confident, it's solid. It's got a good script, and all that stuff. So I mean, these are people who are really, really good at what they do. They are professionals and experts. So in pretty much every scene, there's going to be dialogue or there's going to be action that advances the story forward. But if you can reverse engineer that and look at how it's put together, then you're gonna learn a lot about storytelling, I think. And you can read lots of craft books about storytelling, most of which are written by people who just write craft books on storytelling. It's like a weird thing. And yeah, the writer industry, like people who make a whole career, and I'm telling you how to how to tell stories, but they don't. They've never actually like had a movie produced or real. Yeah, it's this really weird kind of a deal with the writing industry. But anyway, I think movies are great, because we all know movies, we love movies. So if you can't figure out how things are structured, then that really goes a long way toward helping you, I think, tell better stories.

Kay  45:47  
Yeah, it's good. I wanted the fiction books that I read the summer, I just I read it for an escape. I wasn't trying to study it or anything. And then the ending. He pulled together so many different storylines, even storylines that I hadn't recognized, really interested at the end. And there were connections that I didn't catch. And I ended up, I finished the last chapter was an audiobook. So I went back and re listened to like the last hour of the book, to try and in my head, put together the stories and there's still one character that I can't quite place. And I know that it's, you know, maybe I missed something, you know, sometimes I'll listen to a book as I'm falling asleep. And I'm like, I must have missed a section there that I didn't, I missed the connection. And it was just fascinating to me how the author could keep all those stories straight. And bring them together at the end. And I was just like, okay, bravo.

Kent  46:53  
Something else I do, and I'll throw this in there is I like to go back and read the books I loved as a kid for inspiration. So right now, I'm rereading Charlotte's Web. By eBay, it's I mean, it's a classic book. But the reason they're classic, and they continue to be Classics is because there's, they speak to people on a very simple level. They're not necessarily simple stories, but they use simple language, and direct storytelling to really keep you hooked. And they're short chapters. Simple, yet engaging characters, with an emotional story. And I think there's something really fundamentally important about that. So pay attention to the things that you really love. What makes you laugh? What makes you cry, what engages your emotions? There's a reason that thing appeals to you. And if you can sit down and really figure out how did the How did the Creator make this thing, whether it's a movie or a book, or whatever it is? What are the things about it that, that, engage that engage my emotions, and if you can identify those things, then you can turn around and use those same things in your own storytelling?

Kay  47:56  
Okay, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. The podcast, this has been great. I mean, I we could talk all day on because I love I love learning from you, which I get to do in your daily writer club. But just, you know, the structure and the way books are put together, is it's everything. If you want to write something, whether it's short or long, if you can figure out the structure, you're halfway done.

Kent  48:27  
Yeah, I think so. And it's not rocket science. Really. It's just, if there's a book that that you like, and you want yours to sort of read, like, just figure out how they put together the chapter in the chapters in the book, in the books that you enjoy. And just kind of break it down and pay attention to it. It's mean, it's right there on the page. There's no secrets. That's true. So it's just a matter of I think paying attention and looking at the details, and then stealing their ideas.

Kay  48:52  
Of course, absolutely. That's what we do. Well, thank

Kent  48:54  
you. This has been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this.

Kay  48:57  
Yeah, thanks again. That's it for this week. We'll see you in two more weeks from now Hey, almost Christmas time, but we'll do one or two more episodes for the end of the year. And if you've enjoyed this podcast, would you do me a favor and go to your podcast app and leave a review especially on Apple podcasts. That's how more people discover this podcast, and I would really appreciate it. This is the Life and Mission Podcast. I'm Kay Helm, find your voice. tell your story. Change the World.

Kay  49:57  
Mission writers is a one year course. Where do you develop and practice essential storytelling skills to help increase funding for your mission. You'll learn the exact stories that every ministry missionary and nonprofit needs to tell. Develop your storytelling and direct response copywriting skills, learn the fundraising story calendar, build your story library and know when and how to tell your stories. You'll do that with coaching calls. I've got a course library that's already beginning to fill up with lessons and you'll have the community support. You do not have to do this alone. But you do need to tell stories in order to raise funds. I have a free video workshop that you can get at my website. Kay helm.com. That's kyhelm.com Scroll down the page about two thirds of the way down, hit the purple button. And it will take you to sign up for that video of the three stories that every ministry mission and nonprofit needs to tell

Transcribed by https://otter.ai